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marinessDance With Dragons
Ok, it's been almost a week, and I can't bear it any more. Plus, waiting for critical business call and need the distraction. So! Not a formal review, but, just notes:
This is not in any order; I didn't take notes while reading the book, because, enthralled, but these are things I thought about during and afterwards.
1. I'm going with we really didn't need the scene with Theon, the 12 year old and Ramsey Bolton. And by really didn't need it, I mean, it almost made my next point look ok….
2. Um. Ok, so, Pat's Fantasy Hotlist mentioned that someone died baked in a pie…
….and then those Freys started dying in Winterfell….
…and then Lord Manderly cheerfully talked about pork pies…
…and eating them while singing the Rat King's Song….
PLEASE DO NOT PUT THIS RECIPE INTO THE INNSOFTHE CROSSROADS BLOG.
I am frankly beginning to think that just possibly everyone in the North needs to be wiped out and replaced by ice.
3. With that said, Manderly wins, hands down, as the most bad-ass character in the book, if not the entire series, for this scene. Holy crap.
(I'd just reread Storm of Swords so I had the Rat King's song in mind, and then combined that with what I remembered from Pat's Fantasy Hotlist and thought….no.No. And then, I MUST CHECK THE INTERNET ON THIS, and the internet confirms that yes, I'm right.)
4. Apart from the cannibalism, which I didn't think would start up until Winter had lasted just a little longer, and which I really really didn't think would involve pies served at a wedding, and....I have no idea where I was going with this point, except to say that wow a lot of people seem to be eating a lot of other people, and if I were people in the Vale, which still has food and was untouched by the war, I'd be very very nervous. Winter has arrived.
5. So, one of the most dangerous and tricky of the Sand Snakes just happens to be heading to King's Landing where she will just happen to see this very, very very tall knight who apparently never eats or drinks? This should be fun. Incidentally, exactly why is anyone keeping Qyburn around? I mean, I love the guy as a bad guy. He's brilliant and slimy but he's making zombies and I'm thinking that this is not necessarily the sort of guy Kevan Lannister and Mace Tyrell would be welcoming to their councils.
6. Loved hearing more about the ravens, and that they are more than just a cheap messenger service – and why Westeros keeps using them.
7. On a related note, also loved that somebody besides me is just a leetle paranoid about the maesters. Not that I should be, because they are scholars and teachers and raven tenders and all those cool things, but…yes, they are running the Westeros communications system (when the Westeros communication system isn't getting shot down from the skies, thanks for that image HBO). Although given that she thinks Roose Bolton is all awesome, I'm sad that my paranoid thoughts are only shared by someone with questionable moral standards. I guess that happens.
8. But back to Bran. My favorite chapters in the entire novel were the second and third Bran chapters, which is surprising since Bran has never been one of my favorite characters. But. One, for pure fantasy and magic, these chapters rule. Two, we finally get to meet the Children of the Forest. Three, the sorcerer guy stuck in the tree (a character from the Dunk and Egg novellas) is pretty awesome. And then, four –
Not only does Westeros have magical semi-talking ravens who have just given up on singing to humans anymore, they have a WEIRWOOD WIKIPEDIA. Through TREES. Let's give Martin a NICE hand of applause for the double reference to Welsh myth AND Robert Graves there, and then go back to saying, THEY HAVE A WEIRWOOD WIKIPEDIA, WITH VIDEO. Also, internet.
At the same time – and it took me awhile to realize why this was both enthralling me and bothering me – the conclusion, that Bran will mostly be living the lives of others, through the trees, and not his own because of his legs – yeah, that bothered me. Even if he can fly.
9. In the first Davos chapter – welcome to theory four of Jon's parentage? If I'm counting, we have that Jon's parents could be Wylla and Ned Stark (voiced by Ned and Edric Dayne); Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark (voiced by Catelyn and others); Lyanna and Rhaegar (voiced by no one; assumed by readers); and now Ned and a fisherman's daughter? And later, a hint – just a hint – from Barristan and Theon's chapters that Jon (or Aegon, or Dany, or Aurane Waters) is actually the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. Bringing us to five.
(And of course the other theories – that Jon is the son of Benjen and someone, although that last seems more brought up by the HBO show than the books.)
THIS IS TOO MANY POSSIBLE PARENTS. I'm just saying. At this point I'm expecting Jon's parents to turn out to be Patchface and Penny? What? (Ok, age problem. But given that Bloodraven's been stuck in a tree for a bit I'm thinking things like that can be adjusted.)
10. Dany. Your taste in men is worse than mine, and trust me, that is saying something. (With, um, all due apologies to my various male exes reading this. Not talking about you. Except, of course, if I'm talking about you, but I have no idea if you're reading this. Er. Let's just all move on.)
On the other hand, I do think Martin did a good job here of portraying what does happen when a well intentioned woman, armed with dragons, but without any other training whatsoever, takes over a city. It's very clear from this book that although Dany has read some tales, and learned something of the streets from her years on the run, she has not learned diplomacy or basic economics.
So while I really missed the Dany of Storm of Swords who was able to conquer through guile and smarts….this made sense.
11. That said, the most surprising moment of the book for me was Dany's marriage. I figured that Dany would get married at some point. Possibly twice or three times. But to have her marry a minor character that we never met before, who was even minor in this book, to help possibly bring peace to a city that everyone, Dothraki, Volantis slaves, maesters, Meereen residents, advisors, various people in Westeros, thinks she should leave, like now… That was a surprise. I know Martin likes to surprise us with surprise marriages and hookups, but most of those have made sense, one way or another – even if you know said marriage is going to be terrible for the characters involved. But this? Just did not make sense, from a narrative level, a character level, a thing these characters would do level (although part of this is me not having a great sense of Dany's husband before the marriage.) And I saw the poisoning attempt from a mile away.
I really did think she would end up at least considering Quentin's marriage proposal, and then marrying Victarion, given her inexplicable lust for Daario.
12. Speaking of things coming from a mile away – Oh, emo Jon. I understand in your emoness that you think the only thing you can do is send your friends, who are also the only people loyal to you far far away because otherwise, you might, what, show that you reward people who are friendly and loyal to you? No wonder you didn't die from all those knives stuck in you.
13. Speaking of that, Martin, I'm all for cliffhangers but given the number of times you've "killed" characters in cliffhangers only to have them come back in the next book or come back as zombies…No. My immediate thoughts were, either Jon's not dead, or, Jon went into his wolf and will come out in another body in the next book. But not, oh, gee, Jon is dead.
(Completely unsourced and potentially inaccurate internet rumor claims that some of the material removed from this book and placed in The Winds of Winter includes the immediate follow-up to this scene. You are free to treat this rumor with the lack of respect it deserves.)
14. Theon. Still hate Theon. Having his chapters filled with child rape, cannibalism, torture, and so on did not make me like Theon anymore and I'm very sorry he's not dead yet. That said, one, thank you Theon for convincing me that Catelyn really did screw up with you as well – note he has nice memories of Ned, not Catelyn – and also, thank you for providing the background for untrusting maesters and Brandon Stark really not loving Catelyn and so on.
(I am not thankful for the damn pies. I know I said I wanted the Freys dead, but there's dead and then there's eating pies dead.)
(Also, I am genuinely feeling a bit of pity for Fat Walda here.)
15. Lady Dustin, allow me to introduce you to Littlefinger. Your shared obsession with Brandon and Catelyn Tully's betrothal should make you both Bestest Friends.
16. Once I finished, I immediately realized just why it took six years to finish this book – this is one HEAVY book, with a heavy word count; frankly, for all the grief people have been giving Martin, I feel incredibly lazy about my own word count in comparison (plus, Martin reportedly did significant rewriting on this book, adding to the word count, plus, Martin has been continuing to do other editing and writing things, not to mention the HBO show.)
My guess is that the "knot" Martin referred to was not so much how to get everyone to Dany at the right moment and time – although he had that issue – but also, what to do with Dany while Jon Snow learned more about leadership, Arya learned about killing people, and so on. Dany moved very quickly in her first three books – possibly too quickly, from frightened young girl to bedraggled mother of dragons to conqueror, ready for Westeros –
but Westeros wasn't ready for her.
This is the problem of juggling multiple plots/characters. I'm dealing with something similar (on a decidedly lesser scope) with one of the novels I'm working on, where things are happening in two places, and I have to adjust them, to make sure that the plots more or less flow together even if they might not normally. I could just be projecting my own writing problems here, but I think this was part of the problem – and why Dany's chapters seemed to be more stagnant. Not filler, exactly, but stuff that had to be held back – until finally Martin let her climb upon the dragon.
Plus, even your fabulous conquering character armed with dragons needs some setbacks every once in awhile. Possibly more than once in a while.
Ok, it's been almost a week, and I can't bear it any more. Plus, waiting for critical business call and need the distraction. So! Not a formal review, but, just notes:
This is not in any order; I didn't take notes while reading the book, because, enthralled, but these are things I thought about during and afterwards.
1. I'm going with we really didn't need the scene with Theon, the 12 year old and Ramsey Bolton. And by really didn't need it, I mean, it almost made my next point look ok….
2. Um. Ok, so, Pat's Fantasy Hotlist mentioned that someone died baked in a pie…
….and then those Freys started dying in Winterfell….
…and then Lord Manderly cheerfully talked about pork pies…
…and eating them while singing the Rat King's Song….
PLEASE DO NOT PUT THIS RECIPE INTO THE INNSOFTHE CROSSROADS BLOG.
I am frankly beginning to think that just possibly everyone in the North needs to be wiped out and replaced by ice.
3. With that said, Manderly wins, hands down, as the most bad-ass character in the book, if not the entire series, for this scene. Holy crap.
(I'd just reread Storm of Swords so I had the Rat King's song in mind, and then combined that with what I remembered from Pat's Fantasy Hotlist and thought….no.No. And then, I MUST CHECK THE INTERNET ON THIS, and the internet confirms that yes, I'm right.)
4. Apart from the cannibalism, which I didn't think would start up until Winter had lasted just a little longer, and which I really really didn't think would involve pies served at a wedding, and....I have no idea where I was going with this point, except to say that wow a lot of people seem to be eating a lot of other people, and if I were people in the Vale, which still has food and was untouched by the war, I'd be very very nervous. Winter has arrived.
5. So, one of the most dangerous and tricky of the Sand Snakes just happens to be heading to King's Landing where she will just happen to see this very, very very tall knight who apparently never eats or drinks? This should be fun. Incidentally, exactly why is anyone keeping Qyburn around? I mean, I love the guy as a bad guy. He's brilliant and slimy but he's making zombies and I'm thinking that this is not necessarily the sort of guy Kevan Lannister and Mace Tyrell would be welcoming to their councils.
6. Loved hearing more about the ravens, and that they are more than just a cheap messenger service – and why Westeros keeps using them.
7. On a related note, also loved that somebody besides me is just a leetle paranoid about the maesters. Not that I should be, because they are scholars and teachers and raven tenders and all those cool things, but…yes, they are running the Westeros communications system (when the Westeros communication system isn't getting shot down from the skies, thanks for that image HBO). Although given that she thinks Roose Bolton is all awesome, I'm sad that my paranoid thoughts are only shared by someone with questionable moral standards. I guess that happens.
8. But back to Bran. My favorite chapters in the entire novel were the second and third Bran chapters, which is surprising since Bran has never been one of my favorite characters. But. One, for pure fantasy and magic, these chapters rule. Two, we finally get to meet the Children of the Forest. Three, the sorcerer guy stuck in the tree (a character from the Dunk and Egg novellas) is pretty awesome. And then, four –
Not only does Westeros have magical semi-talking ravens who have just given up on singing to humans anymore, they have a WEIRWOOD WIKIPEDIA. Through TREES. Let's give Martin a NICE hand of applause for the double reference to Welsh myth AND Robert Graves there, and then go back to saying, THEY HAVE A WEIRWOOD WIKIPEDIA, WITH VIDEO. Also, internet.
At the same time – and it took me awhile to realize why this was both enthralling me and bothering me – the conclusion, that Bran will mostly be living the lives of others, through the trees, and not his own because of his legs – yeah, that bothered me. Even if he can fly.
9. In the first Davos chapter – welcome to theory four of Jon's parentage? If I'm counting, we have that Jon's parents could be Wylla and Ned Stark (voiced by Ned and Edric Dayne); Ashara Dayne and Ned Stark (voiced by Catelyn and others); Lyanna and Rhaegar (voiced by no one; assumed by readers); and now Ned and a fisherman's daughter? And later, a hint – just a hint – from Barristan and Theon's chapters that Jon (or Aegon, or Dany, or Aurane Waters) is actually the child of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne. Bringing us to five.
(And of course the other theories – that Jon is the son of Benjen and someone, although that last seems more brought up by the HBO show than the books.)
THIS IS TOO MANY POSSIBLE PARENTS. I'm just saying. At this point I'm expecting Jon's parents to turn out to be Patchface and Penny? What? (Ok, age problem. But given that Bloodraven's been stuck in a tree for a bit I'm thinking things like that can be adjusted.)
10. Dany. Your taste in men is worse than mine, and trust me, that is saying something. (With, um, all due apologies to my various male exes reading this. Not talking about you. Except, of course, if I'm talking about you, but I have no idea if you're reading this. Er. Let's just all move on.)
On the other hand, I do think Martin did a good job here of portraying what does happen when a well intentioned woman, armed with dragons, but without any other training whatsoever, takes over a city. It's very clear from this book that although Dany has read some tales, and learned something of the streets from her years on the run, she has not learned diplomacy or basic economics.
So while I really missed the Dany of Storm of Swords who was able to conquer through guile and smarts….this made sense.
11. That said, the most surprising moment of the book for me was Dany's marriage. I figured that Dany would get married at some point. Possibly twice or three times. But to have her marry a minor character that we never met before, who was even minor in this book, to help possibly bring peace to a city that everyone, Dothraki, Volantis slaves, maesters, Meereen residents, advisors, various people in Westeros, thinks she should leave, like now… That was a surprise. I know Martin likes to surprise us with surprise marriages and hookups, but most of those have made sense, one way or another – even if you know said marriage is going to be terrible for the characters involved. But this? Just did not make sense, from a narrative level, a character level, a thing these characters would do level (although part of this is me not having a great sense of Dany's husband before the marriage.) And I saw the poisoning attempt from a mile away.
I really did think she would end up at least considering Quentin's marriage proposal, and then marrying Victarion, given her inexplicable lust for Daario.
12. Speaking of things coming from a mile away – Oh, emo Jon. I understand in your emoness that you think the only thing you can do is send your friends, who are also the only people loyal to you far far away because otherwise, you might, what, show that you reward people who are friendly and loyal to you? No wonder you didn't die from all those knives stuck in you.
13. Speaking of that, Martin, I'm all for cliffhangers but given the number of times you've "killed" characters in cliffhangers only to have them come back in the next book or come back as zombies…No. My immediate thoughts were, either Jon's not dead, or, Jon went into his wolf and will come out in another body in the next book. But not, oh, gee, Jon is dead.
(Completely unsourced and potentially inaccurate internet rumor claims that some of the material removed from this book and placed in The Winds of Winter includes the immediate follow-up to this scene. You are free to treat this rumor with the lack of respect it deserves.)
14. Theon. Still hate Theon. Having his chapters filled with child rape, cannibalism, torture, and so on did not make me like Theon anymore and I'm very sorry he's not dead yet. That said, one, thank you Theon for convincing me that Catelyn really did screw up with you as well – note he has nice memories of Ned, not Catelyn – and also, thank you for providing the background for untrusting maesters and Brandon Stark really not loving Catelyn and so on.
(I am not thankful for the damn pies. I know I said I wanted the Freys dead, but there's dead and then there's eating pies dead.)
(Also, I am genuinely feeling a bit of pity for Fat Walda here.)
15. Lady Dustin, allow me to introduce you to Littlefinger. Your shared obsession with Brandon and Catelyn Tully's betrothal should make you both Bestest Friends.
16. Once I finished, I immediately realized just why it took six years to finish this book – this is one HEAVY book, with a heavy word count; frankly, for all the grief people have been giving Martin, I feel incredibly lazy about my own word count in comparison (plus, Martin reportedly did significant rewriting on this book, adding to the word count, plus, Martin has been continuing to do other editing and writing things, not to mention the HBO show.)
My guess is that the "knot" Martin referred to was not so much how to get everyone to Dany at the right moment and time – although he had that issue – but also, what to do with Dany while Jon Snow learned more about leadership, Arya learned about killing people, and so on. Dany moved very quickly in her first three books – possibly too quickly, from frightened young girl to bedraggled mother of dragons to conqueror, ready for Westeros –
but Westeros wasn't ready for her.
This is the problem of juggling multiple plots/characters. I'm dealing with something similar (on a decidedly lesser scope) with one of the novels I'm working on, where things are happening in two places, and I have to adjust them, to make sure that the plots more or less flow together even if they might not normally. I could just be projecting my own writing problems here, but I think this was part of the problem – and why Dany's chapters seemed to be more stagnant. Not filler, exactly, but stuff that had to be held back – until finally Martin let her climb upon the dragon.
Plus, even your fabulous conquering character armed with dragons needs some setbacks every once in awhile. Possibly more than once in a while.